High-color video playback on STE

[sasa]

Added some new videos and little speed blah on page:  http://atari.8bitchip.info/movpst.php

Most impressive so far
Can we get the files for Steem/ste, mste ?

[Petari]

I must write here some explanations: 
Idea about high-color video playback was given some years ago, on forums. Then I said (after simple calc.) that it is not possible, at least not at 25 fps and some bigger res - because of need for very fast disk readings. Plus, converting to PCS format is pretty slow, and no batch conversion possible - as there was only ST version of Photochrome available. Even with accelerated Steem, it takes some 20 secs to convert 1 pic. Imagine 1 min of video, what is 1500 frames - how long it would take ...

Now, thanks to renewed interest about high-color displaying on ST(E) - we have already at least 4 formats: Photochrome, Spectrum, Cyg and MPP. And fast batch conversion on PC is possible - at least with Photochrome and MPP. And Photochrome is under development still.
So, one problem is solved.  Disk speed problem is of course not possible to solve with SW only. In any case, at least some 2-3MB/Sec data rate is needed.  And it is possible only with mine CATA adapter + little mod in STE. I don't see any other way for real Atari STE HW.

Hopefully, CATA will be available soon - I need to do some SW too - because fast loading code part must be in CATA ROMs.

So, because no people having enough fast hard disk adapters, I did not post STE SW and AV files. Instead it, couple ones for emulators. On them, it is easy thing, because disk loadings via GEMDOS emulation are very fast.
But real thing is playback on STE. Plus, AVI files of captures are much shorter than RAR-ed HAV files (not well packeable).

Then, I did most of stuff in fast conversion mode - still in experimenting phase, mostly.  Will redo some in Photochrome m3 mode, but it needs several hours for 1-2 min material. Then may post yet couple demos for emulators.

Currently trying to solve 320x200 px. playback on STE (in Steem it works fine, of course) .  My org. idea of using Read Multiple command is not usable on usual hard disks and CF cards (no support in drives), so I try it in little different way.  Will see how it be ..

And I want to try with MPP format too. As Cyg did not respond, will spare some time planned for that format    - I just point that all this needs really plenty of time.

[sasa]

thanks for the explanation
which is the maximum speed on the mste with scsi hdd ?

[Petari]

I measured about 1300KB/sec with Quantum 2GB drives, what was best I seen - and it is near to theoretical max. with MSTE internal IDE adapter - 1350 KB/sec.  Need 2x more for this     .
Btw. fastest SCSI on Ataris is with ICD Link2 adapter - it can some 1800KB/sec with good drive.

Btw #2:  I practically solved fullscreen (320x200 px) playback, just need to fix some minor errors.  It can not be done with SCSI at all, because of way how updating colors - possible only with IDE disks.  Video soon.

[paulwratt]

did someone delete that user and their posts yet? Jetenify

need a Capcha on the signup page (if there is not one)

[Petari]

Spammers, please go on some more visited forum    We are small community.

Fullscreen AV playback - added funny demo on page:    http://atari.8bitchip.info/movpst.php

[Petari]

Big improvements in quality:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5EbCT0W_Ds&feature=youtu.be

Done with new PCS5.10B - many new options there .
Will add files good for Steem, Hatari on site soon ..

[petsasjim]

hi Petari, i have 2 questions,please.sorry,if the questions are "strange".

1)is possible all this perfect work be done on an 8bit machine (like atari 130xe) with lower resolution,lower fps,fewer colors (256 is the palette) with an specific utility (like PCS5.10B on  atari ste) but based on a 8bit paint program.(atari 130xe has a cartridge slot,too).

in the end of has video playback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUsDSNtRkTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kT3ND_K-tg

2)
you nicely said """Big improvements in quality:   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5EbCT0W_Ds&feature=youtu.be

congratulations.the new improvement is resolution (320x160 -> 320x200)
now please tell me, we talk now about your new improvements,if "atari ste" with your software-hardware patent have in video 320x200x4096x25fps
then in atari falcon is possible to reach a bigger resolution? and how bigger resolution you think? (i know that this is a result from your patent and ramdisk and not from cpu power and the ste videoshifter).tell me please what you think : "68030 and videl" dont help to reach some higher resolution? with your new standards?

thank you for your time.

[Petari]

I don't think that is possible on some 8-bit at all. There is no 256 color palette for whole screen. And if would, then disk speed would be insufficient. Only with very limited colors.  Actually, I did movie playback without sound on Sinclair Spectrum - it looks pretty ugly, because limited colors, not only colot number is limited, but number of colours per block.

Even on Atari STE, with Photochrome, saying 4096 colors is just simplifiation - it stays for whole screen, but we have limit of colour number per line, and it is only 48 with PCS. Quality depends mostly from converter - how well it can convert original pic, where every pixel may have any color to this limit.  And even more problems:

Actually, new, big improvement is not 320x200 - I did it already about 2 weeks ago. Improvement is called  error diffusion.
With only 4096 colors problem is gradient - when color changes gradually, very little in some direction. Most noticeable at horizons, but on human faces too + darker parts. 4096 color is just not enough for it, and result are big 'stains' with same color instead smooth transition. Therefore error diffusion is used by such conversion - you may see it in all paint programs by color reduction.

Atari Falcon is not fast enough for bigger resolution video playback .  320x200 is max, where can get 25 fps. I'm sure. Using 256 color mode, and quality img. preprocessing.

[jvas]

This is for the 8bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owHCjEWjAvs (MyIde interface through the cartridge port)

[petsasjim]

""Improvement is called error diffusion.""

ah ok,i understand.

thank you for all your answers.again,one question.
what do you think is it better to have on video with an atari ste 4096 limited palette screen (48 per line)?
or an atari falcon "true" 256 colors on screen?
with other words which from two is "better looking"?

[Petari]

Definetly 256 colors on Falcon.  Why - it is actually 256 colors from palette of 256000 colors, and any px can be any of 256 colors.  With this specs, and good preprocessing, you can get really good looking video, practically with almost perfect colors.
At res 320x200 (maybe 320x240). More not - disk speed lomits, then at higher res. Falcon will slow down too much (bus speed related).

Some more explanations:

Original img, with 16M colors:


Converted to STE capable 4096c,  54colors/line:

Errors are most visible on face.

Conv. to 256c , indexed:


Same as above with error diffusion:

Almost perfect.

For illustration, converted to 16c, indexed:


16c, indexed + error diffusion:

[kovacm]

I don't think that is possible on some 8-bit at all. There is no 256 color palette for whole screen. And if would, then disk speed would be insufficient.

they have some "Sunrise IDE", MyIDE, SIO2IDE...
e.g. SIO at Atari XL is 52000 bit/s (only 6.5 KB/s) and video memory is up to 8KB. so only some kind of similar solution like CATA IF would enable video playback on XL...

Atari Falcon is not fast enough for bigger resolution video playback .  320x200 is max, where can get 25 fps. I'm sure. Using 256 color mode, and quality img. preprocessing.

320x200, 25 fps, 256 color - is arround 1.6MB/s?

standard Falcon IDE can transfer up to 2.8MB/s (PP, you manage to make faster IDE on ST tan on Falcon! )


EDIT:

BUT why not 320x200 in TC ?? it would be 3.2 MB/s - at least BUS slowdown is less than in 256 color mod but screen size is bigger thus better quality. And wouldn't 030 with cache be fast enough for at least simple RLE compression (in preprocessing video lines less prone to changing color for better RLE compresion)?

[Petari]

they have some "Sunrise IDE", MyIDE, SIO2IDE...
e.g. SIO at Atari XL is 52000 bit/s (only 6.5 KB/s) and video memory is up to 8KB. so only some kind of similar solution like CATA IF would enable video playback on XL...

320x200, 25 fps, 256 color - is arround 1.6MB/s?

standard Falcon IDE can transfer up to 2.8MB/s (PP, you manage to make faster IDE on ST tan on Falcon! )

EDIT:
BUT why not 320x200 in TC ?? it would be 3.2 MB/s - at least BUS slowdown is less than in 256 color mod but screen size is bigger thus better quality. And wouldn't 030 with cache be fast enough for at least simple RLE compression (in preprocessing video lines less prone to changing color for better RLE compresion)?

8 bit computers generally have much slower bus, and it alone is enough to make something similar not possible.

Yes, it is about 1.6MB/sec. And Falcon can more than you thought:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/ahpt.html
But only in lower res and color modes. If set true color, it will fall under 2300KB/sec.
SCSI is slower, about 1.7MB/sec max.
In reality, you can get max 80% of such speeds via filesystem, and only if take care about loading chunk sizes - fastest is when they are equal to cluster size or it's multiple.

Slowdown is of course more in TC mode - then 1 screen is 128KB, while with 256 colors it is 64KB. 128KB means that CPU is slowed down sometimes, because RAM and bus can not suply both video and CPU enough fast. But, as said, with 256 colors mode you can do almost perfect colors.
Only that preprocessing needs then more time and care - best is to divide video in scenes, and do each one with own palette - then will be minimum flickering.

Some simple compression would work by simpler pictures. But by usual material like movies or camera shots of people, gain is too little. Even with RAR you can not pack it well - sometimes can get only 10-20% shorter data.

[petsasjim]

hi Petari,thank you for your instructive and specific answers,with the nice photo examples.
be good.