About KAOS and SUPER TOS

[jester]

I have tested Kaos TOS and it seems to be a very fast, reliable and comfortable version for ST serie... but I have a question related to localisation: I am french and am using a french keyboard. So I want to know if it exists a solution to hack/update this version to remap the keyboard scancode to french layout... without using software (as CLOCKY for example)... but directly by modifying KAOS TOS.

I have the same question for the SUPER TOS... and I have never found what are the enhancements of this SUPER TOS compared to 2.06 TOS (except the window contain which keeps visible during moving windows)... nobody can clearly answer to this question in any forum.

[Petari]

Most likely, KAOS TOS uses same keyboard tables as regular TOS 1.04. So, need just to put French table on proper place.
There are some TOS functions to get adresses of those tables.

Super TOS - I don't see that it is something really better than regulat TOS 2.06. Even moving window content is not umprovement for me - too slow.

[jester]

It is also my first impression with Super TOS.

I never found a function or document which gives the address of the mapping table in ROM... only functions which allow to modify the mapping table in last TOS version.
But I am not sure of the usability of KAOS TOS because many applications dont' work with this version... even CLOCKY that I has to use for mapping my french keyboard to US KAOS, does not boot with KAOS (many bombs appear during boot process).

Perhaps I will continue to use official TOS version to avoid many problems. And your HD driver seems very fast even with a 1.04 TOS... if you accept to sell me it with your partitioner  (I am sure we will find a solution for payment in euro zone).

[Petari]

Basically, hard disk driver speed itself depends not from TOS version. The differences you may see are because different filesystem code in TOS versions.  It is btw. more complex than hard disk code self.
And may be that compatibility problems are right because some solutions in filesystem code by KAOS TOS.

[jester]

I am not very confident in these hacked TOS with some tests, and finally I would prefer official version (1.04 and 2.06 for STE).
I have not understand clearly if your HD driver and moslty your partitioner software can manage an original HD (here a Seagate ST157N inside a Mega STE) or if they work only with modern storage solutions (IDE, SD card with Satan disk, etc.) ?
If not, what is the best HD driver and partitioner for classical SCSI drive... according to your experiences ?
But I suppose that your driver is required for your converted game archives...

I was surprised to see a true SCSI-1 drive inside my Mega STE... I thought that drives are limited to rare ASCI ones !

[Petari]

My driver and partitioner can handle any SCSI drive attached via ACSI port. In this category belong Satan and UltraSatan.
What handle not is:   SCSI on TT via it's SCSI port (but SCSI via ACSI port on TT handles).  SCSI on Falcon - it has no ACSI port.
Not handle  very old IDE drives without LBA.  Actually, my first driver was IDE, for drives without LBA - I had some 80 MB Conner and 40 MB Seagate first.  It was somewhere in 90-es.  But later I removed that old (CHS) code, because all those drives are now dead, and everything made after 1995 is LBA compatible.

Hddriver by Uwe Seimet is best - and it is still developed.

My game archives (adaptations) work with Hddriver, AHDI drivers too. Lates ones (made this year) with any driver.
But best work with mine drivers - then will have fastest work for instance.

There is no ACSI hard disk in fact.  What Atari made (Megafile 30 and similar) were MFM or RLL hard disks with special adapter to convert ACSI commands to their protocol.
Then we had diverse ACSI-SCSI adapters like ICD ones, or adapter in Mega STE. All Mega STE were equipped with SCSI drive. Mostly Seagate ST 157 of 46 MB. Mine is still operational - but very noisy.
And here we have one limit:  Mega STE internal adapter can access may 1GB of attached SCSI drive.

[jester]

Now, everything is clear... thank you.

I would prefer your HD driver + partitioner !

[paulwratt]

Jester:
KAOS and Super TOS were designed to be ROM replacements in real hardware

If you want to use K/S TOS use separate HD as primary with Hddriver, AHDI drivers

From Memory:
KAOS original was 1.04 TOS German version modified with WINX (or based on WINX modifications)

You can always use RAMTOS (or similar) to use other TOS (loaded in RAM at boot time)

The WINX was also original German TOS mod, and only some WINX mods work with US/FR/UK ROMs (US more than others)

There is website somewhere (with complete zips) with actual patches and patch system, but I can remember where. I had the complete website on backup HD, but that crashed in FEB this year. But I did read the entire docs and patches. I think there was TT version patches as well.

I maybe wrong about KAOS/WINX TOS being 1.04 mod, maybe 1.62/2.06, sorry I can not check/verify..

There is complete list of "SuperTOS" mods somewhere, I have read this too, but LONG time ago, maybe in 2000, it was in archive with ROM image, and I know that it is most common just ROM only distributed/found (you are using TOS206X.ROM right?)

There is not too much extra in SuperTOS, mostly just some window related items (incl icons fit width of window, not max window like others), but there was some other small changes too, sorry I not have photo-graphic memory any more (dark room is out of film . I believe it was meant for "fast" machines like Mega or 020+ processor (ie 16MHz+), then it not so "slow".

KAOS is EXTREMELY modified, so much it would not run on most emulators in 2000. This is not emu hardware problem, but "recognise ROM version" problem with emus.


Conclusion:
I think it better to use regular TOS with driver from Petari.

Since STEem src is open now, maybe some missing support can be added (MFC), possibly X/BIOS level "folder as drive" as it is a must have for "regular desktop", even with HD images, but I notice 3.33 SSE crash with PASTI

Hope that explains a little more.. sorry cant be 100% accurate (hopefully 95%+)

Paul

[Petari]

I did not deal with KAOS for some time (years) .
But remember some things still:  it is modded TOS 1.04 for ST (not 1.06/1.62 for STE).
Popsel was impressed with it, and says that some firm in Germany still uses Atari STs with KAOS.
But I guess that some average Atari user, gamer can not benefit much from it - more chances that will encounter compatibility problems.

Don't get what you mean " missing support can be added (MFC), possibly X/BIOS level "folder as drive" "  - it exists in Steem and Hatari too. Folder as drive:  more precisely PC (Windows/Linux) folder assigned as Atari logical drive.  It is not on X/BIOS level (although, I suggested to add something like to Hatari folk, in past), but on CPU emul.  level (at least in Steem) - hooked at Trap #1 file function calls - nice visible in Steem sources.
That type of hard disk emulation is very useful, and easy usable (+ very fast). However, it is not real hard disk emulation, and some SW works not - for instance games like Shadowgate, + some utils. They require 'real' hard disk emulation - possible via Pasti in Steem, or set ACSI or IDE emulation in Hatari.

[paulwratt]

Yes KAOS was popular with GEM Desktop apps, but some patches useful like "skip mem" test and "0sec HD spin up". Most of the GEM Desktop Window enhancements can also be found in WINX (with patches) if you have, or can find the sources. Unfortunately I lost everything I had just after Christmas (Feb) this year (350Gb worth)

X/BIOS level "folder as drive" (as STonC has) would allow most of those "other programs" to run (on STEem), including MiNT (on Hatari too)

I have some things to look at immediately, but then I will see if the X/BIOS level "folder as drive" code from STonC is usable in STEem and Hatari..